Comments for Don't Ask - Don't Tell at http://www.blogocrats.com , comment 1 to 30 out of 20 comments http://www.blogocrats.com Fri, 30 Jul 2010 05:01:49 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9446 Sparta, I think that this is where the US and Australia differ. It's just about unknown for an Australian to be called an Asian Australian. Also, in the armed services these days (at least in Australia) far more effort has gone into making a career in the armed services much more like a normal job. While single new enlistees might still live in apartment style accommodation in eg Garden Island Sydney, for a growing majority they live in regular houses with wives and partners. I think that this might be likewise in the US.. a friend of mine (from Tasmania) is married to a US Army sergeant and they live in a regular house in Atlanta. This serves to separate when you're on duty and recognises that personnel are entitled to a home/personal life. As previously stated, what people do in their bedrooms is their own business. As regards 'feminization', surely one's ability to perform in combat roles has little to do with gender but a matter of capability. Some women may be able to fulfill such a role, some men may feel themselves not capable. - Min Sun, 07 Feb 2010 22:57:28 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9442 I think you wrong here Min.....Yes, we must learn to work as a team but individualism (which is what this is essentially promoting) and identity politics is where this will lead....It is much like how identity politics has back fired culturally (African or Asian-American)...You are no longer a "soldier" but a "gay soldier" here me roar...it is not going to go over smoothly...mark my words! Because the average troop has no say but is being FORCED to deal with this there will be a back lash...Seems those that have beliefs different from you and others here don't matter...Funny thing though Min, one chooses to serve in the military (gay or not) and in doing so makes a choice..U and others are now suggesting we must all accomodate them, nothing more.... [quote]Sparta, too little and too late, women have been serving with or as adjuct to the Australian armed services since WW1. In fact I think since the Crimean War with Florence Nightingale. [/quote] LOL.....Sure, there is a place for women who want to serve but not on the front lines....They can bomb, fly choppers and care for the sick and dying but no way they will ever be permitted into direct combat roles like the marines...It simply wouldn't fly in the States....Feminization had it's place but has no place on the front lines...Again, you seem to think there is no difference between the genders.....I simply disagree with that...But by all means, the Navy and Fly-boys are panzies anyway....Just jokin..;) - Sparta of Phoenix AZ, USA Sun, 07 Feb 2010 16:56:33 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9441 Ah, targets. The problem with ships is that they're so bloody big: Too big to hide and too slow to run. That makes them vulnerable. Things might have been OK during the second world war when the enemy (at least in the Pacific) had lousy radar, but these days any enemy we're likley to meet in a stand-up fight can find our ships relatively easily. Leave aside radar, satellites can locate any surface vessel to within a few metres anywhere on the globe, day or night and in real-time. And all the big players have them, or access to them. This makes surface ships sitting ducks, especially to sub-orbital ballistic missile strikes. Forget about phalanx guns, they're not fitted to the Anzac Frigates and would be useless at hitting something coming straight-down at the ship at mach 15 anyway. It would be like trying to knock-down a meteor with a souped-up machine-gun. If there's ever a big brew-up between, say China and the USA, the US carrier groups, the pride of their fleet, wouldn't last 5 minutes for this reason. There is just no effective defence against ballistic lissile attack, even a non-nuclear one. And the Chinese have plenty of non-nuclear ballistic missiles, some with very considerable ranges. Carriers are great at showing the flag, intimidating small-fry nations and giving Admirals somewhere to hang their uniforms, but that's about it. They're as obsolete now as battleships were in 1941. So is the rest of any surface fleet. Plus it's cost effective: A 4 or 5 million dollar missile taking-down a 5 or 6 billion dollar ship. Do the math. Subs might survive as an effective fighting force, but that's only because they're much harder to find and to kill. Surface naval warfare between technologically advanced foes is, however, kaput. - Evan Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:29:44 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9440 Evan, two of my uncles were Inspectors of Police, you want targets? Am kidding, no not about my uncles. Mobius, just a quick phone call from son..he said 'snakes' is the name, but they're mostly ok. - Min Sun, 07 Feb 2010 06:39:12 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9438 With my brother a former RAAF WO, I'm more of an "air-power, dig it" dude. Ships are targets. - Evan Sun, 07 Feb 2010 06:04:54 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9436 Hehe Evan. Quite right..get a few navy people/musos/teachers etc together in the same room... - Min Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:54:09 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9435 I see the Senior Service is well represented here. Cue Village People: "In the Navy........ - Evan Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:45:55 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9433 And also girl BMs. Hubby's older cousin was at the Malay conflict in the days where they used to hang their hammocks..he sent me a couple of pics. And yes he did eventually receive his medal/s. - Min Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:43:17 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9430 Yep BMs, gay or not, are in charge of the ship's small arms and deck guns. - Mobius Ecko Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:29:50 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9427 Adrian, Yes you're right. Son was ABBM in charge of munitions. Son's main concern was the XO and the cook. Next phone call (like a good lad he phones his mum and dad at least once a week), I'll ask him about the coxwain. However I don't expect much more than a hummmff as a reply..navy people are a bit like that. - Min Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:21:51 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9425 Min methinks you have confused the coxswain (ship's sheriff if you like) with the bosun's mate (BM), the ship's foreman in charge of the deck. The coxswain answers directly to the XO for ship's discipline and run's the table when a sailor faces punishment. The coxswain can also directly give out minor punishments like leave stoppage and/or extra work (chooks). Coxswains have many of the same powers as the civilian police. The bosun's mate answers to the XO for all deck evolutions and deck maintenance, like launching boats, jackstays, transfers, helo ops, ropes, anchor etc. - Mobius Ecko Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:11:41 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9422 Christ, is the US still fretting-away about crap like this? Right now they're in so much self-created doo-doo that I think their military in far-away places needs all the combat effectives it can get, whether they be gay or straight. So far as I know, gays make just as good soldiers as anyone else, and that's all that matters, isn't it? At a time like this, whether they are "righteous" enough to serve their country as soldiers really is a rather stupid debate to be having. The Taliban must be killing themselves laughing over that one. In so far as it is relevant (and it isn't at all) the Talibs themselves are a bit like your ancient Greeks on the subject antway, despite what the Koran might have to say say about it. Talk about your classical values types: The men in that part of the world have a long tradition of treating their women like cattle and writing love poetry about doe-eyed young men. (Probably dates back to when Alexander the Great toured the place). - Evan Sun, 07 Feb 2010 05:02:11 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9418 Hexx, not a dumb thought at all. But then you are a gentleman. Women in Australia serve in all spheres of the RAN with the exception of submarines. - Min Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:41:23 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9417 Maybe if we had females on the front line, countries would be more caustious in sending out troops into a war or starting one. Probably a dumb thought - Hexx Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:36:09 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9416 #It seems some in the gay & lesbian community are good enough to serve and die for their country...provided they keep their traps shut and lifestyle locked up in a cage. strong words. when i read that i cant debate it, nor would i. Negativity can only come from ones issues to deal with others, it seems some have elevated themselves over others. America is lucky to have a leader that can see this or things similar and try to correct it. it can never hurt unless your ignorant. - Hexx Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:28:49 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9415 Sparta, but that's what it's all about - that people should be able to come out if they want to but that they should not fear consequences such as automatic discharge due to this decision. However, nor should any service personnel be required to come out if this is not their choice. Re [quote]The whole point of the military is to do away with your individualism is it not?[/quote] Absolutely not. The military is all about people working together as a team, noting and utilizing each individual's best qualities while working towards a common goal. I cannot see how Adrian with his 21+yrs could possibly be accused of being just 'theory'. Sparta, too little and too late, women have been serving with or as adjuct to the Australian armed services since WW1. In fact I think since the Crimean War with Florence Nightingale. - Min Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:24:56 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9414 Who said gays shouldn’t serve or were inept? I simply don’t think it serves anybody by making it “a tell all” thing….I certainly didn’t go around proclaiming I was a heterosexual? I don’t support forcing people to leave should their sexuality be made public but I question why the need to “come out”? The whole point of the military is to do away with your individualism is it not? As usual, you guys are living in theory and I can guarantee you there will be unforeseen problems…Besides, I am sure Adrian never made jokes at the expense of some groups or talked about women with his mates while lying around on the rack…..I can foresee the harassment and discrimination claims already…Anyhow, they are going to have to alter the UCMJ to accommodate this “feel good” policy and has anybody asked the troops? Of course not….. - Sparta of Phoenix AZ, USA Sun, 07 Feb 2010 01:03:39 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9413 Mobius, no nothing's changed. Son fortunately had 3 excellent XOs on HMAS T*, one was better than the other 2 regarding communication back to families. Son was the you'beaut best mate of the coxwain (PO I think) as son has an accurate hand and could always get the rope to shore..band playing and everyone looking..at Garden Island. On a return trip from the Gulf, after 3 tries the PO handed it to son. It was an excellent crew on the old Too Broke and (for Sparta) this includes the women. - Min Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:53:04 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9412 Served on a DDG with a gay cook at a time when a person was discharged from the military if they were outed. Just about everyone onboard knew he was gay and as far as I know he served a long and distinguished career without being discharged. I know there were many more like him in the military. So why weren't these people dobbed into command and why did so many get promoted and serve their full terms without being discharged, some like the cook on the DDG getting commendations? Because they were good at their jobs, served their country and uniform with distinction and in many cases were better troops than some of the straights they served with. ------------------ As an aside Min there are actually three people onboard a ship you never hassle or get on the bad side of. The cook foremost as you already know, the coxswain and the XO in that order. There are four people onboard a ship anyone of of whom can make it a good ship or a bad ship to serve on. The captain, the XO, the coxwain and the senior cook. Victuallers/Supply Officer can also make life a misery but you can live with that. Normally if you have a bastard of a skipper and good XO ship life can still be good, but having a bastard of an XO is not desirable no matter how good the skipper is. As they work hand in hand, a bad XO and a bad coxswain really is the pits yet one being good and the other shit tends to cancel the bad one out. That is very general but mostly how I've found it and how shipmates describe it as well, and that comes on the back of 21 years PN and 3 years RN of which nearly 15 years was at sea. - Mobius Ecko Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:36:57 +0100 http://www.blogocrats.com/index.php/top-menu-sections/human-rights/496-dont-ask-dont-tell#comment-9411 I should mention that anyone who manages to get through basic training at HMAS Cerberus has earned themselves a place on the team, irrespective of gender or sexual orientation. - Min Sun, 07 Feb 2010 00:30:28 +0100